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Post by Marielle on Feb 20, 2007 16:23:30 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that both the 2CD recording and the highlights featuring Yamaguchi as Der Tod have Park Dong-Ha as Rudolf. Kenji Urai can be found only in the Masaaki Uchino recording... unfortunately. I can understand how some people would doubt that Dong-Ha is Korean, since he hardly has any accent when he sings in Japanese.
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Post by Valjean87 on Feb 20, 2007 17:13:55 GMT -5
Thanks Marielle, you are a reliable person ! Also thanks to Jo for the spelling of his name. Masaaki Uchino... unfortunately. Tell me about it : www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm_d65PpjdsI think he cracks too much on his rock Tenor, I prefer Yamaguchi .
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Post by lapislazuli on May 13, 2007 7:27:03 GMT -5
Now that I got familiar with both of them I voted for Toho, which was a very clear decision. Takarazuka is very beautiful and Nao Ayaki is even more beautiful - but actually I have to say I am not so much the visual type. I go more for the content and that is why I like the Toho very much. They combined parts of Takarazuka, Vienna and the dutch/german version in a very sensible way without copying anything.
Valjean: You mentioned the changed lyrics in the Takrazuka-version. Did they change the meaning of the song, or what were they actually about?
One thing I was wondering a lot about is why Takarazuka cut out the "Wie du"-Rerpise. Maybe someone has an idea. The possible reasons I could come up with, are that this must have eigther cultural reasons (though I don't know too much about japanese culture, so maybe someone can help ...) or that it simply would show Elisabeth in a not so nice way, and maybe this did not fit with the Takarazuka version, as it seems they wanted to make her seem more likable and innocent. One reason that is for sure, is that they wanted to make the role of Elisabeth smaller, as the main part has to be male. Though I find it a very strange decision, as this is usually one of the most important scenes in the play.
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Post by exedore on May 13, 2007 10:16:55 GMT -5
Valjean: You mentioned the changed lyrics in the Takrazuka-version. Did they change the meaning of the song, or what were they actually about? They changed meanings. The Takarazuka version obliterates all of the political aspects and the satire and kept the show romance focused. They cut it because they use a different song in that place instead that was newly written for Japan.
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Post by lapislazuli on May 13, 2007 14:57:42 GMT -5
They changed meanings. The Takarazuka version obliterates all of the political aspects and the satire and kept the show romance focused.
Hmm. I think they must have changed the meanings in more places. I remember having read somewhere, that Takarazuka and Toho used different translations (at least in parts´)
They cut it because they use a different song in that place instead that was newly written for Japan. [/quote]
This can't be, because the new song is only in the Toho production (correct me if I am wrong) and Toho also kept the "Wie du"-Reprise. But Takarazuka cut "Wie du" and they also don't have the new song for Elisabeth. (only the "Rondo"-song for the death)
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Post by Fantasma da Opera on May 13, 2007 15:22:56 GMT -5
Well I voted for Takarazuka for a simple reason...I think Elisabeth in Japanese is weird...I don't like the TOHO version...Takarazuka makes a diferent show, the idea of a all-female cast is not usual in Europe, and the sets and costumes are much more exquisite. The TOHO version is just a foreign version of Elisabeth, like the Dutch, the Finnish, the Hungarian versions...
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Post by Valjean87 on May 13, 2007 15:23:12 GMT -5
I think Toho differences has to do with keeping the feel of the original way of the Vienna production. As for Takarazuka, yes all of the meaning of the lyrics has been changed in order to keep up with the focus of the "love" portion of the story. Remember, Takarazuka's main audiences are Teenagers, Women and Men.
Oh the new song is about Rudolf's dream Coronation dance sequence. Its in both Toho and Takarazuka.
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Post by Valancy on May 14, 2007 15:06:17 GMT -5
I think the new song exedore referred to was Zwischen Traum und Wirklichkeit, wasn't it? If I recall correctly it was written for the Toho production but then removed after a while. The Takarazuka version does not have it. I do not really understand why the 'Wie Du' reprise was cut in the Takarazuka version either, perhaps because they were focusing more on Death and wanted more time for his scenes.
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Post by exedore on May 14, 2007 16:04:08 GMT -5
I think the new song exedore referred to was Zwischen Traum und Wirklichkeit, wasn't it? If I recall correctly it was written for the Toho production but then removed after a while. The Takarazuka version does not have it. I do not really understand why the 'Wie Du' reprise was cut in the Takarazuka version either, perhaps because they were focusing more on Death and wanted more time for his scenes. Actually, the song I was thinking of is Rondo...which may be Zwischen Traum und Wirklichkeit...I should really get the Stuttgart CD so that I have a German copy.
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Post by Valancy on May 15, 2007 3:36:54 GMT -5
"Ai to Shi No Rondo", in German Kein Kommen Ohne Geh'n and in Hungarian Útvesztö minden út, is the additional song written for Death which in the Japanese and Hungarian versions is sung by him to her when they first meet (ie. just before where the 'normal' versions have Schwarzer Prinz). The Takarazuka versions (not sure about Toho) also have a couple of reprises of it by Death later on.
The Hungarian version does have the 'Wie du' reprise even though they also have the extra song for Death.
"Zwischen Traum und Wirklichkeit" is the extra song written for Elisabeth in the Toho version if I recall correctly, and it was sung some time in the second act. Maki Ichiro performs it in Japanese on the 10th anniversary concert recording; on the same recording, Szilveszter Szabó and Maki Ichiro (singing as Death this time) perform Kein Kommen Ohne Geh'n / Rondo / Útvesztö minden út / whatever should be the correct title to use to refer to it... in Hungarian and Japanese, anyway.
I hope that makes it clear which song is which?
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Post by lapislazuli on May 15, 2007 14:30:31 GMT -5
Hmm ...I understand in Takarazuka the focus is completely different then in original idea of the musical. Because in the musicals structure and in the way that Kunze thought of it "Wie du"-Reprise is on of the most important scenes. It's the introduction to the last part of the play. Elisabeth finds out what she had to learn. She cut herself out of every human relationship, because relationships would mean she has to give something, this she can't because giving would mean giving up a bit of just belonging to herself, but it has mad her more lonely then she ever wanted to be.
I don't think that the Takarazuka-version could be measured with Kunzes Drama Musical-structure. There the story is not so much about Elisabeth fighting to be free, but about how can death reach her and attract her to himself. So "Wie du"-Reprise is not at all important to the Takarazuka-version and it did no harm to the piece anymore to cut it, as it did not contribute to the story that Takarazuka wants to tell.
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Post by Valancy on May 15, 2007 15:43:01 GMT -5
Perhaps - and I'm sure the fans of Takarazuka version alone do not feel anything is missing. I've just never been quite able to accept the change of focus in the Takarazuka version, despite the fact that I enjoy their version nevertheless, if not nearly as much as the European versions. I keep thinking of how much better I'd like it if the structure was closer to the European versions (because I do appreciate the aesthetics and the gorgeous cross-dressing Japanese women).
It's probably why the fans of Takarazuka Elisabeth and the fans of European Elisabeth rarely seem to meet. Many fans of the 'normal' versions seem to loathe Takarazuka versions and think they've completely butchered the musical, and on the other hand I've noticed that Takarazuka fans rarely care for the European versions when introduced to them. The focuses of the two versions are just so different that they're really two completely different musicals in some ways, and don't appeal to the same fanbase. Of course there are fans of both versions, as evidenced by some people posting here, and even I consider myself a fan of both though I complain about the changes made to the Takarazuka version. But such fans don't seem to be in the majority.
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Post by Valjean87 on May 15, 2007 15:49:26 GMT -5
"Ai to Shi No Rondo", in German Kein Kommen Ohne Geh'n and in Hungarian Útvesztö minden út, is the additional song written for Death which in the Japanese and Hungarian versions is sung by him to her when they first meet (ie. just before where the 'normal' versions have Schwarzer Prinz). The Takarazuka versions (not sure about Toho) also have a couple of reprises of it by Death later on. Nope, Toho doesn't have the reprises, Toho is closer to the Vienna as possible. Oh and not that I am just the fan of the Takarazuka/Toho versions but other versions as well(Essen wins my vote as the best European version). There are some fans that likes them all just because its Elisabeth. Its kinda like fans liking either ALW's POTO or Maury Yeston's despite their differences.
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Post by Valancy on May 15, 2007 16:00:51 GMT -5
Oh and not that I am just the fan of the Takarazuka/Toho versions but other versions as well(Essen wins my vote as the best European version). There are some fans that likes them all just because its Elisabeth. Its kinda like fans liking either ALW's POTO or Maury Yeston's despite their differences. Yeah, you were one of the people I was thinking of when saying that some seem to be fans of the many different versions. I've just noticed that often the Takarazuka vs. European Elisabeth fans don't really meet. I tend to like all versions to an extent because it's all Elisabeth and I appreciate finding different angles and different interpretations, but there are some versions I think are better than others. (I'm still not taking the poll, by the way, because I've yet to get properly familiar with the Toho version, but based on all I've heard I think it will win because the content would seem to be closer to what I want in Elisabeth.)
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Post by Sandrinoo2004 on May 16, 2007 6:22:40 GMT -5
Just a little question : How many Takarazuka production of Elisabeth are they? I am a little confused ... And same question for Toho ;D
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